| Pages in topic: [1 2 3] > | MTPE project to be financially free Thread poster: Eduard Urgell
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Hi everyone,
Last week, I was contacted by a PM (whom I will not mention publicly because I don't think this is allowed) from a translation agency (not disclosed either, unless someone is really interested and wants to send me a private message) offering me to work on an MTPE project.
I tend to ignore job offers with unreasonably low rates, but for some reason this one required a response. I will quote the emails I received so you get an idea of what I'm talking about. ... See more Hi everyone,
Last week, I was contacted by a PM (whom I will not mention publicly because I don't think this is allowed) from a translation agency (not disclosed either, unless someone is really interested and wants to send me a private message) offering me to work on an MTPE project.
I tend to ignore job offers with unreasonably low rates, but for some reason this one required a response. I will quote the emails I received so you get an idea of what I'm talking about. It started like this: "We have received a new very special MTPE QandA project from English to Spanish and we would be very pleased to have you onboard!". Since that was a very special project, I couldn't stop reading until I saw the following: "As for the rate, we are paying the same MTPE rate of 0.015 USD per word". I didn't know whether to delete the email right away or answer. Given that I had some free time at that moment, I decided to answer as follows: "I'm sorry, but I'm not willing to work for such a ridiculous rate. If you require my collaboration, please reconsider the amount you can offer". The PM declined increasing the rate right away and added, in an offended tone: "I will make sure to remove you from our ridiculous team so we don’t contact you and waste our time anymore". After making the wrong assumption that I had called their team ridiculous, he went on to say: "There are thousands of translators working on this rate on this pair, this is far from outrageous. This is Spanish, not Swedish or Norwegian. The offer x demand rule is applied as usual and the offer of translators is enormous on this pair". Alright, pure free market; either you play by the rules of the invisible hand or you're out. My answer was: "If that is true, I can't imagine how many words they [the translators who accept such rates] have to process in order to make a living out of this". And here comes the best part from the friendly PM: "That is an MTPE job, they can do up to 8k words per day, that is 120 USD. Please note that 120 American dollars a day in Argentina, Mexico or even Spain is quite a lot, no? I am glad you have better paid projects, but that is not the standard if you want to work on a daily basis instead of waiting for high paid projects". In sum, blunt assumptions about where I come from, how much money I need, how many words I should process in a day and whether I actually have regular work or not. I didn't have the guts to reply any longer because I felt this was over the top, but I thought I might share such a pleasant and professional bargaining process.
What do you think? Have you ever been questioned in such a way? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 17:50
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
I try to do business in a neutral way: sometimes angry and frustrated from the inside, but always or at least as much as possible neutral from the outside. "I'm sorry, but my minimum rate is x." And if they insist: "I'm sorry, but my rates are not negociable." Minimum effort for a very clear message.
This was an offending offer, I would ignore these.
| | | | Eduard Urgell 
Spain
Local time: 17:50
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | It's best not to lose one's temper | Mar 4 |
You're right, and I usually do that or not reply, but last Friday I was up for some fun 😁
| | | | | "There are none so blind as those who will not see" | Mar 4 |
The poor bastard is so used to his misery that he doesn't really distinguish between vile exploitation and decent work.
Time wasted Edward, "there are none so blind as those who will not see"
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Oriol VIP
Spain
Local time: 17:50
English to Spanish
+ ...
| That's not even offensive. | Mar 4 |
I have received answers from agencies that owe me money in which they have threatened me with violence, legal actions if I kept sending them messages so they pay what they owe me (yes, that thing some people do to twist from abuser to victim) and used incredibly abusive language -nothing to do with the kitten stuff you posted.
That's just laughable and inconsequential.
| | | | Emanuele Vacca
Italy
Local time: 17:50
Member (2020)
English to Italian
Regardless of who is right in this argument, I think there is absolutely no point in trying to convince any PM or agency that certain rates are "ridiculous", "insulting", "too low", and so on. They will never decide to change their rates because of these considerations. In these cases, if the email was sent to multiple translators, I just don't reply. If it was sent to me specifically, I just say that my minimum rate is xxx and ask whether they are willing to accept it.
[Edited at 2024-03... See more Regardless of who is right in this argument, I think there is absolutely no point in trying to convince any PM or agency that certain rates are "ridiculous", "insulting", "too low", and so on. They will never decide to change their rates because of these considerations. In these cases, if the email was sent to multiple translators, I just don't reply. If it was sent to me specifically, I just say that my minimum rate is xxx and ask whether they are willing to accept it.
[Edited at 2024-03-04 12:03 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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There's still worse: regarding this same project for Dutch and Ukrainian, I’ve seen elsewhere that the “compensation” is:
We will pay per valid word fixed correctly.
| | | | Eduard Urgell
Spain
Local time: 17:50
English to Spanish
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TOPIC STARTER | It's OK to negotiate | Mar 4 |
Emanuele Vacca wrote:
Regardless of who is right in this argument, I think there is absolutely no point in trying to convince any PM or agency that certain rates are "ridiculous", "insulting", "too low", and so on. They will never decide to change their rates because of these considerations. In these cases, if the email was sent to multiple translators, I just don't reply. If it was sent to me specifically, I just say that my minimum rate is xxx and ask whether they are willing to accept it.
[Edited at 2024-03-04 12:03 GMT]
I generally agree on that, but I don't think it's a bad idea to discuss about rates with PMs and it has sometimes led me to better-paid projects.
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Eduard Urgell
Spain
Local time: 17:50
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida wrote:
There's still worse: regarding this same project for Dutch and Ukrainian, I’ve seen elsewhere that the “compensation” is:
We will pay per valid word fixed correctly.
We'll reach a point where the fixed word count will be negative and translators will have to pay for their work...
| | | | Emanuele Vacca
Italy
Local time: 17:50
Member (2020)
English to Italian
Eduard Urgell wrote: Emanuele Vacca wrote:
Regardless of who is right in this argument, I think there is absolutely no point in trying to convince any PM or agency that certain rates are "ridiculous", "insulting", "too low", and so on. They will never decide to change their rates because of these considerations. In these cases, if the email was sent to multiple translators, I just don't reply. If it was sent to me specifically, I just say that my minimum rate is xxx and ask whether they are willing to accept it.
[Edited at 2024-03-04 12:03 GMT] I generally agree on that, but I don't think it's a bad idea to discuss about rates with PMs and it has sometimes led me to better-paid projects.
It's funny because I did not say that "it's a bad idea to discuss rates"; almost the opposite. Also, saying that a rate is insulting or too low is not a negotiation technique.
| | | | Eduard Urgell
Spain
Local time: 17:50
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Emanuele Vacca wrote: Eduard Urgell wrote: Emanuele Vacca wrote:
Regardless of who is right in this argument, I think there is absolutely no point in trying to convince any PM or agency that certain rates are "ridiculous", "insulting", "too low", and so on. They will never decide to change their rates because of these considerations. In these cases, if the email was sent to multiple translators, I just don't reply. If it was sent to me specifically, I just say that my minimum rate is xxx and ask whether they are willing to accept it.
[Edited at 2024-03-04 12:03 GMT] I generally agree on that, but I don't think it's a bad idea to discuss about rates with PMs and it has sometimes led me to better-paid projects. It's funny because I did not say that "it's a bad idea to discuss rates"; almost the opposite. Also, saying that a rate is insulting or too low is not a negotiation technique.
Well, you did say that you don't reply if the email is sent to multiple translators, and I think it's almost mandatory for us to let PMs know that what they're offering is not acceptable. In any case, I see what you mean. Thank you for answering.
| | | | Marina Aleyeva
Israel
Local time: 18:50
Member (2006)
English to Russian
+ ...
| If someone talks like a crook, walks like a crook and tries to impose a crook's rates... | Mar 4 |
Their arrogance is as suggestive of their crooked ways as are their ridiculous rates.
I receive this kind of offers every couple of weeks. Most of them begin with "Hello, This Donna X" (yes, they want you so much they can't be bothered with grammar). They seem to come from the same dodgy agency hiding behind different names.
[Edited at 2024-03-04 18:03 GMT]
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Eduard Urgell
Spain
Local time: 17:50
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Marina Aleyeva wrote:
Their arrogance is as suggestive of their crooked ways as are their ridiculous rates.
I receive this kind of offers every couple of weeks. Most of them begin with "Hello, This Donna X" (yes, they want you so much they can't be bothered with grammar). They seem to come from the same doggy agency hiding behind different names.
I have received one or two offers from that infamous Donna. They can't be bothered to write properly...
| | | | | "Pure" free market? I would love it! | Mar 4 |
Eduard Urgell wrote: Alright, pure free market;
I would love it if it were "pure" free market (meaning no NDAs, no "non-competition" clauses - I'm rolling up my sleeves as I'm thinking about it). In a "pure" free market I would call end-clients, just out of spite, and give them a tip on how to ask a 50% discount from agencies and get it right away (on another note, in a "pure" free market Elon Musk would not become a billionaire via government subsidies).
In sum, blunt assumptions about where I come from, how much money I need...
But when I raised the same argument, that the Proz calculator is ridiculous because it's based on "living expenses" and that your physical location should not be a price factor, I faced strong counter-arguments here, because here people love to argue even if you tell them 1+1=2.
They will never decide to change their rates because of these considerations.
Correct. By the way, the absolute minimum charge at agencies is still $95-$110, yet some give the translator $10-$25 out of it. End-clients assume that they have no other option. One day, one unhappy translator will pick up the phone.
I try to do business in a neutral way
Correct, it's better to stay calm. Don't react emotionally to your computer screen. The PM is also under pressure from other higher teams and her own bonuses. On another note, this job is hardly "doing business". Because "being in business" is not the same as "owning a business". Just because you're not officially an employee doesn't mean you're a business owner - you're a remote uninsured worker, and the official translator for the client is the agency.
The offer x demand rule is applied as usual and the offer of translators is enormous on this pair
She's right you know... this applies even in some European countries/language pairs. I could post a job for 0.01 and it'll be claimed in seconds (ok, some will be so brave as to ask for 0.02).
In these cases, if the email was sent to multiple translators, I just don't reply.
That's the best approach. Don't participate. Participation will negatively affect your mental state and trap you in the "participation box". Not a good mentality to cultivate.
Do something else instead: exercise, advertise for jobs that need special handling, explore your community (in person if possible), find another source of income, etc. Because even if you happen at some point to be in a "preferential list" in large agencies, receiving lots of work, this will not protect you from further price decreases or tech advances. Your colleagues decided to keep rolling down the hill to get more grass, but you don't need to follow them to the bottom (there's no grass there).
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 17:50
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
Lefteris Kritikakis wrote:
Because "being in business" is not the same as "owning a business". Just because you're not officially an employee doesn't mean you're a business owner - you're a remote uninsured worker, and the official translator for the client is the agency.
And the official translator for the agency is the freelancer. What's your point here, besides spreading some bollocks about what's a business owner and what's not?
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