| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | MTPE project to be financially free Thread poster: Eduard Urgell
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Lieven Malaise wrote: And the official translator for the agency is the freelancer.
Or maybe it's the 3rd or 4th or 15th translator in a row who worked on the project over 5 years? (paragraphs added all the time...). Or the proofreader? Or the so-called QM?
Your name appears nowhere on the product.
My point is just confirming what I see in other recent posts/threads here: Translators now have almost zero pricing power (with very few exceptions).
| | | | Lieven Malaise
Belgium
Local time: 18:53
Member (2020)
French to Dutch
+ ...
Lefteris Kritikakis wrote:
Or maybe it's the 3rd or 4th or 15th translator in a row who worked on the project over 5 years? (paragraphs added all the time...). Or the proofreader? Or the so-called QM?
So what? From a business perspective this is completely irrelevant.
Lefteris Kritikakis wrote:
Your name appears nowhere on the product.
So what? Who cares? Imagine thinking it's important or even useful to have your name mentioned on some utterly boring document. Imagine me going to a commercial website, reading the name of the person who translated the website and thinking that person must be someone really special.
Imagine translating the body of a French regional touristic website, delivering splendid work, and then noticing that they have kept the badly translated general structure of that same website. Imagine then having your name on that website being the translator. Thanks, but no thanks.
Lefteris Kritikakis wrote:
My point is just confirming what I see in other recent posts/threads here: Translators now have almost zero pricing power (with very few exceptions).
Every one's situation is different and at least half of the freelancing field consists of worthless* translators. The fittest will survive, the rest may disappear. And as far as I'm concerned: the sooner the better.
You choose to focus on the bottom-feeders and all the negativity that can be found in this industry, but fail to see that's not representative for the translation market.
*Small anecdote: the other day on LinkedIn a translator was wondering if it's normal that clients expect you to deliver a flawless test translation if it's a free one. "I had indeed made some mistakes, but...". You can't believe this s**t.
| | | | Eduard Urgell 
Spain
Local time: 18:53
English to Spanish
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TOPIC STARTER | That's what it's about | Mar 5 |
Lefteris Kritikakis wrote: Lieven Malaise wrote: And the official translator for the agency is the freelancer. Or maybe it's the 3rd or 4th or 15th translator in a row who worked on the project over 5 years? (paragraphs added all the time...). Or the proofreader? Or the so-called QM? Your name appears nowhere on the product. My point is just confirming what I see in other recent posts/threads here: Translators now have almost zero pricing power (with very few exceptions).
You say we have no pricing power, but I think we actually do. If no one agreed to collaborate on such projects, agencies would have to cave in and offer higher prices. The key for that, however, are strong translators' associations...
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:53
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| Unions, again, really? | Mar 5 |
Eduard Urgell wrote:
The key for that, however, are strong translators' associations...
All you have to do is persuade an entire planet of freelance translators to organize into associations in their respective countries, and persuade the associations in all the countries to agree that they will respect the rules of all the other associations in all the other countries in the world, so that they can't undercut or compete with each other.
Then, when agencies in one country don't want to pay a certain price for a certain job, the freelancers in that country can organize against the agencies to establish a minimum level, and tell other associations from other countries to respect these rules.
Straightforward enough.
Of course, there could be unintended consequences. For example, associations in one country might decide that they don't like competition from associations in other countries, and ban freelance translation across borders. Lots of potential for tit-for-tat prohibition there.
Or agencies might decide that they will no longer engage in trans-national work due to the regulations for every country being different, so those lucrative German accounts might decide to make do with machine translation for their Spanish language pair documents.
Of course, in the U.S., which has substantial global influence, you have the whole issue of whether this would count as price-fixing, which is why the FTC investigated the ATA a couple of decades ago.
Anyway, let us know how you get on. Unionising was suggested for the umpteenth time only a couple of weeks ago, but perhaps it will be different this time. A fortnight is a long time in politics.
Dan
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Eduard Urgell wrote:
You say we have no pricing power, but I think we actually do. If no one agreed to collaborate on such projects, agencies would have to cave in and offer higher prices. The key for that, however, are strong translators' associations...
No, it is entirely within your own power to reject any pressure on your rates from agencies. That’s what I do, entirely independently, and hey presto I don’t get any jobs that are not at my chosen rate.
| | | | Eduard Urgell
Spain
Local time: 18:53
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Difficult, but not impossible | Mar 5 |
First things first, I didn't mention the word "unions". I don't think an association is quite the same...
Even if I'm aware of the challenges posed by a global market such as translation, isn't rejecting projects at laughable rates the most sensible thing to do? It's true that the translator who's starting out will have to postpone immediate gratification, but this will benefit us all in the long run, don't you think so?
A bottom threshold should do the trick, even if t... See more First things first, I didn't mention the word "unions". I don't think an association is quite the same...
Even if I'm aware of the challenges posed by a global market such as translation, isn't rejecting projects at laughable rates the most sensible thing to do? It's true that the translator who's starting out will have to postpone immediate gratification, but this will benefit us all in the long run, don't you think so?
A bottom threshold should do the trick, even if that were just a recommendation from such an association, and that couldn't be considered price-fixing. But then again, we might have reached a point where the discussion revolves more around one's political ideals than around what is actually possible. I think free market is a savage monster which desperately needs to be tamed. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Zea_Mays
Italy
Local time: 18:53
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
Historically, unions represent defenceless workers exploited by employers. And as you know, they follow the iron law of oligarchy as any organisation.
[Bearbeitet am 2024-03-05 19:13 GMT]
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:53
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
Eduard Urgell wrote:
First things first, I didn't mention the word "unions". I don't think an association is quite the same...
Well, if not a union and collective action, then what are you going to fight these terrible agencies with - intemperate language? Associations are toothless in an unregulated market. They already exist in almost every country.
Even if I'm aware of the challenges posed by a global market such as translation, isn't rejecting projects at laughable rates the most sensible thing to do?
It is indeed sensible and you were absolutely right to turn down the offer, although I probably wouldn't have responded to the inquiry in the first place. I have many times suggested that freelancers need to learn how to say "no".
A bottom threshold should do the trick, even if that were just a recommendation from such an association, and that couldn't be considered price-fixing.
How will a toothless measure such as a recommended threshold stop people? And should we even try? Somebody will have accepted the job you rejected, and that kind of person doesn't pay attention to thresholds. If more people did turn down such offers then in theory that might help push up prices, but the fact is that they do accept them and we don't have the right to force them to reject prices that we think are too low. Nor do we have the right to force agencies to insist on a certain level of quality, one that we think is "appropriate". That's not our place. The client decides how much quality or how little quality they need.
The difficult thing is that in a free society, other people also have agency. We may not agree with the decisions they make, but they have the freedom to make them. Agency includes the freedom to make mistakes, and to act in ways that other people do not necessarily like, provided that they are not breaking laws.
What can we do as translators? We can talk about the issues on forums like this, but it is impossible to set a "fair" price for such a heterogeneous and international market. Even the word "market" is a misnomer. There is no one market, just hundreds or thousands of niches. In a large, commoditized, low-value niche with plentiful supply, you are going to get the kind of offer you got earlier. In a small, high-value niche with restricted supply you can be more selective.
But then again, we might have reached a point where the discussion revolves more around one's political ideals than around what is actually possible. I think free market is a savage monster which desperately needs to be tamed.
What would you replace the free market with? The free market may be awful, but most of the 20th century was taken to establish that the alternatives to straightforward capitalism are even worse. Unfortunately it works better than anything else we've tried.
Most of the problems that arise are caused by politicians and other do-gooders meddling clumsily in the market, muddying price signals, distorting transactions, and messing up supply and demand. Establishing laws to deal with things like monopolies is sensible. Setting general prices by government fiat does not work. It's all done with the best of intentions, of course, but we know what the road to hell is paved with. Rent control is a good example of this kind of thing.
As I advised somebody else recently, you should start a new thread on this topic. There are plenty on here with similar political views - it might be a stimulating discussion. You would certainly have a lot of sympathy.
Regards,
Dan
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I have fallen prey to such blizzard PMs time and again, from experience I ignore them then and there cuz I know their manners stemming from a sheer profiteering outlook. We had better not to waste your breath on such petty parties and try to replace them.
| | | | Yaotl Altan
Mexico
Local time: 10:53
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Lieven Malaise wrote:
I try to do business in a neutral way: sometimes angry and frustrated from the inside, but always or at least as much as possible neutral from the outside. "I'm sorry, but my minimum rate is x." And if they insist: "I'm sorry, but my rates are not negociable." Minimum effort for a very clear message.
This was an offending offer, I would ignore these.
If they insist, I tell them "Read my previous message". Sometimes they reply up to 4 times, but my reply is the same. Then, they write ugly things about my mother
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 18:53
French to English
Lieven Malaise wrote:
Imagine translating the body of a French regional touristic website, delivering splendid work, and then noticing that they have kept the badly translated general structure of that same website. Imagine then having your name on that website being the translator. Thanks, but no thanks.
The copywriters in the source version are not credited, so why should the translator be credited?
And yes, I've seen that time and again.
Often, the person who puts my translation online will copy and paste the copy, but just types the title in, because it's quicker to type than to copy/paste. And their English is not so hot and they don't notice slight differences in spelling compared to the source text. And their mistake is in big black letters for all to laugh at.
Lieven Malaise wrote:
*Small anecdote: the other day on LinkedIn a translator was wondering if it's normal that clients expect you to deliver a flawless test translation if it's a free one. "I had indeed made some mistakes, but...". You can't believe this s**t.
At the agency I was always amazed at how many translators sent in test translations where they hadn't even put the file through the spellcheck. I was able to eliminate tons simply on that basis. No need to look any further!
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Kay Denney wrote:
Often, the person who puts my translation online will copy and paste the copy, but just types the title in, because it's quicker to type than to copy/paste. And their English is not so hot and they don't notice slight differences in spelling compared to the source text. And their mistake is in big black letters for all to laugh at.
At the agency I was always amazed at how many translators sent in test translations where they hadn't even put the file through the spellcheck. I was able to eliminate tons simply on that basis. No need to look any further!
Every single time. It's mindboggling.
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Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 12:53
Spanish to English
+ ...
| The bottom line is... | Mar 10 |
no matter how much they pretend, they KNOW their rates are miserable, either because they are charging the end client "normal" rates and paying their translators next to nothing or because they cannot compete and get projects at a higher rate. If they COULD collect more from their clients, they most definitely WOULD. They have priced their "services" at a rate that is not designed to provide quality, but rather to undercut other bottom-feeding competitors targeting low-information clients.
... See more no matter how much they pretend, they KNOW their rates are miserable, either because they are charging the end client "normal" rates and paying their translators next to nothing or because they cannot compete and get projects at a higher rate. If they COULD collect more from their clients, they most definitely WOULD. They have priced their "services" at a rate that is not designed to provide quality, but rather to undercut other bottom-feeding competitors targeting low-information clients.
Either way, they know what they are doing. With rare exceptions, no one can "edit" 8,000 words of machine translation in 8 hours and consistently produce anything that resembles quality. Those that think they can, and there are people who genuinely believe that they can, simply do not know how to translate. But sadly, you will never convince them otherwise; they will die with that delusion.
Just keep delivering quality on-time work to your clients and those clients who care, know the difference and want quality will continue to use and seek out your services and pay you a living wage.
[Edited at 2024-03-11 16:41 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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This is a widespread problem dealing with some profiteering agencies who like to have freelance translators work hard in return for so little. Personally speaking, I would not succumb to such outrageous demands and recommend others to do so as to enhance our working conditions.
| | | | Eduard Urgell
Spain
Local time: 18:53
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I think every translator working for agencies should print your message and fix it on the wall where they can see it clearly each time they receive such offers.
I'm aware that agencies seek clients and do some preparation work for the projects to be ready for linguistic processing, but the fact that the share they get is so disproportionately higher than their pawn's is nothing short of mind-boggling for me. The same thing goes to publishing houses, record labels and so on, by the w... See more I think every translator working for agencies should print your message and fix it on the wall where they can see it clearly each time they receive such offers.
I'm aware that agencies seek clients and do some preparation work for the projects to be ready for linguistic processing, but the fact that the share they get is so disproportionately higher than their pawn's is nothing short of mind-boggling for me. The same thing goes to publishing houses, record labels and so on, by the way... ▲ Collapse
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