Feb 11 09:30
3 mos ago
62 viewers *
English term
Never done tea
English
Art/Literary
General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters
Hello everyone,
This is from J Austen’s "The Watsons”. There is a ball going on and the phrase in question is used by Lord Osborne, who asks his friend Tom Musgrave to dance with Emma, a charming young girl. Emma has arrived at the ball under the care of Mrs. Edwards, the woman said to have “never done tea.” The ladies at the moment are -or are expected to be- in the tea-room. The passage is as follows:
(Lord Osborne asking Tom Musgrave to dance with Emma)
“I was determining on it this very moment my Lord, I’ll be introduced and dance with her directly.’
‘Aye do – and if you find she does not want much talking to, you may introduce me by and bye.’
‘Very well my Lord –. If she is like her sisters, she will only want to be listened to. – I will go this moment I shall find her in the tea-room. That stiff old Mrs Edwards has never done tea.’
Away he went – Lord Osborne after him – and Emma lost no time in hurrying from her corner, exactly the other way, forgetting in her haste that she left Mrs Edwards behind.”
I can’t figure what is meant with this “never done tea”, here in this context, and would be grateful for your help.
Thank you.
This is from J Austen’s "The Watsons”. There is a ball going on and the phrase in question is used by Lord Osborne, who asks his friend Tom Musgrave to dance with Emma, a charming young girl. Emma has arrived at the ball under the care of Mrs. Edwards, the woman said to have “never done tea.” The ladies at the moment are -or are expected to be- in the tea-room. The passage is as follows:
(Lord Osborne asking Tom Musgrave to dance with Emma)
“I was determining on it this very moment my Lord, I’ll be introduced and dance with her directly.’
‘Aye do – and if you find she does not want much talking to, you may introduce me by and bye.’
‘Very well my Lord –. If she is like her sisters, she will only want to be listened to. – I will go this moment I shall find her in the tea-room. That stiff old Mrs Edwards has never done tea.’
Away he went – Lord Osborne after him – and Emma lost no time in hurrying from her corner, exactly the other way, forgetting in her haste that she left Mrs Edwards behind.”
I can’t figure what is meant with this “never done tea”, here in this context, and would be grateful for your help.
Thank you.
Responses
Responses
7 hrs
Selected
has not yet brewed the tea
The ladies are in the tea room but Mrs. Edwards, who perhaps was expected to brew the tea, hasn't yet done so
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Note added at 7 hrs (2024-02-11 17:17:46 GMT)
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Alternatively this could mean that at these particular gatherings Mrs. Edwards had never brewed the tea - suggesting that it was beneath her to do something so menial
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Note added at 7 hrs (2024-02-11 17:17:46 GMT)
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Alternatively this could mean that at these particular gatherings Mrs. Edwards had never brewed the tea - suggesting that it was beneath her to do something so menial
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Toni Castano
: I think this is the right reading: “to brew the tea”. I am just frightened at what I am seeing at this KudoZ (please note: “frightened” does not mean “surprised”). You certainly know what I mean.
2 hrs
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thank you
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neutral |
Althea Draper
: Mrs Edwards wouldn't be responsible for brewing the tea at a ball. In the tea-room at a ball, it would be brewed by staff and served to the ladies by the gentlemen.
20 hrs
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De rigueur?
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neutral |
Oliver Simões
: No way. Mrs. Edwards was well-to-do compared to the Watsons. See quotation on the Discussion Board.
1 day 3 hrs
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disagree |
Katalin Horváth McClure
: Mrs. Edwards is a guest, came as Emma's chaperone. She is not supposed to brew the tea.
42 days
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thank you very much "
-3
46 mins
have never had tea before / have never tried tea before
-- INFORMAL --
do:
take (a narcotic drug).
"he doesn't smoke, drink, or do drugs".
https://www.google.com/search?q=define do&rlz=1C1NDCM_enUS84...
Since tea is addictive, it is a mild narcotic drug.
do:
take (a narcotic drug).
"he doesn't smoke, drink, or do drugs".
https://www.google.com/search?q=define do&rlz=1C1NDCM_enUS84...
Since tea is addictive, it is a mild narcotic drug.
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Christine Andersen
: The language of Jane Austen (1775-1817) is in several ways different from modern English, and I don´t think you can compare tea with modern narcotics, especially in the social settings in Jane Austen's books.
1 hr
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neutral |
Althea Draper
: It would be highly unusual if Mrs Edwards had never had tea before. It actually mentions in the story that the family drank tea and had muffins before going out to the dance that evening.
2 hrs
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disagree |
Andrew Bramhall
: No it doesn't mean that
3 hrs
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neutral |
philgoddard
: I love this! Maybe she'd never done cake either http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cake&defid=38...
4 hrs
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neutral |
AllegroTrans
: extremely unlikely
6 hrs
|
disagree |
Arabic & More
: Not in this context.
11 hrs
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disagree |
Katalin Horváth McClure
: In this context, this cannot be correct.
42 days
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-3
6 hrs
never gossips with other people
I'm just guessing, but doesn't the above phrase "Mrs. Edwards have never done tea", means she is not sociable so she will not participate in drinking tea with other people? The word "tea" in terms of slang means to gossip, so maybe she's not the type of person who would engage in meaningless gossip stories with other people.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/tea
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/tea
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Althea Draper
: If you read the whole story, you will see that she was a sociable person. "The next morning brought a great many visitors. It was the way of the place always to call on Mrs. Edwards the morning after a ball".
52 mins
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disagree |
Andrew Bramhall
: Nope.
2 hrs
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disagree |
Arabic & More
: Not in this context, no.
6 hrs
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disagree |
Katalin Horváth McClure
: Not correct in this context.
42 days
|
6 hrs
(has) never brewed, served or drunk/consumed tea
"‘Tea’ per definition means the following: 1) Tea, the beverage made by infusing dried and crushed tealeaves, or by mixing pulverized tea leaf in hot water, consuming the leaf in its entirety. 2) The tea leaf obtained from the Camellia Sinensis – an evergreen shrub also known as the tea-plant – of which the youngest buds and leaves are plucked and then heated and rolled/crushed to dry. 3) The act of brewing, serving or consuming tea; ‘to do tea’ (emphasis added). Which in extended meaning can also be used to refer to the rite of tea." https://www.the-tea-crane.com/blog/japanese-tea-types-chart/
While the British may have perfected the "art" of tea-drinking, the tradition actually comes from China. The Portuguese word for "tea" is "chá", which derives from the Chinese.
"The etymology of the various words for tea reflects the history of transmission of tea drinking culture and trade from China to countries around the world.[1] Nearly all of the words for tea worldwide fall into three broad groups: te, cha and chai, present in English as tea, cha or char, and chai. The earliest of the three to enter English is cha, which came in the 1590s via the Portuguese, who traded in Macao and picked up the Cantonese pronunciation of the word." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_tea
cha: noun Tea; -- the Chinese (Mandarin) name, used generally in early works of travel, and now for a kind of rolled tea used in Central Asia. (...)
In Ireland, or at least in Dublin, the term "cha" is sometimes used for tea, and "char" was a common slang term for tea throughout British Empire and Commonwealth military forces in the 19th and 20th centuries, crossing over into civilian usage." https://www.wordnik.com/words/cha
While the British may have perfected the "art" of tea-drinking, the tradition actually comes from China. The Portuguese word for "tea" is "chá", which derives from the Chinese.
"The etymology of the various words for tea reflects the history of transmission of tea drinking culture and trade from China to countries around the world.[1] Nearly all of the words for tea worldwide fall into three broad groups: te, cha and chai, present in English as tea, cha or char, and chai. The earliest of the three to enter English is cha, which came in the 1590s via the Portuguese, who traded in Macao and picked up the Cantonese pronunciation of the word." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_tea
cha: noun Tea; -- the Chinese (Mandarin) name, used generally in early works of travel, and now for a kind of rolled tea used in Central Asia. (...)
In Ireland, or at least in Dublin, the term "cha" is sometimes used for tea, and "char" was a common slang term for tea throughout British Empire and Commonwealth military forces in the 19th and 20th centuries, crossing over into civilian usage." https://www.wordnik.com/words/cha
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Althea Draper
: As a wealthy woman of her time, she will almost certainly have brewed, served, and drunk tea. The first ref. is about tea drinking in Japan and the others bear no relevance to the passage in question..
41 mins
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My first ref. explains the meaning of "to do tea". Do you mean she * was served * tea? Frankly, I don't see the rich serving anybody. They love to be served. But maybe you're right, in which case it's only fair to present your references.
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neutral |
AllegroTrans
: With Althea; this is highly unlikely // same reasons as put forward by Althea; I respectfully think that as an American you cannot grasp the prevalence of tea-drinking in England in Austen's time; all your detail about the Chinese is of little relevance
1 hr
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"Of little relevance"? It DEFINES the phrase! Does one need to be a part of another culture to grasp anything about it? Of course not. The text does not lend itself to a definite conclusion, which means all answers here (mine included) are just guesswork
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agree |
Toni Castano
: I think this is the right reading: “to brew the tea”. I am just frightened at what I am seeing at this KudoZ (please note: “frightened” does not mean “surprised”). You certainly know what I mean.
3 hrs
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Thank you, Toni.
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disagree |
Katalin Horváth McClure
: Nope. Not correct in this particular historic and linguistic context.
42 days
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-2
8 hrs
Mrs Edwards herself had never adopted the afternoon tea-taking habit
The customary indulgence in afternoon tea-taking had never been a habit to which Mrs Edwards subscribed. Popular from Georgian-Victorian times, it's still a well-known and widely indulged in habit today, whether by workers slurping tea from pint mugs in factory canteens, or company directors taking theirs in fine china, or to the Women's Institute all sticking their little fingers out whilst drinking theirs alongside munching daintily on finger, crust less sandwiches and Victoria sponge cake and fondant fancies, things haven't changed much. As far as Mrs.Edwards was concerned, it was just a habit she observed others indulging in, while giving it a wide berth herself.
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Note added at 9 hrs (2024-02-11 18:41:57 GMT)
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...and of course, as a wealthy woman of status, her abstinence from the habit would have been noteworthy amongst her peers;
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Note added at 9 hrs (2024-02-11 18:41:57 GMT)
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...and of course, as a wealthy woman of status, her abstinence from the habit would have been noteworthy amongst her peers;
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
AllegroTrans
: You could be correct, but that is no reason to slap down every other other answer with a "disagree" that is not supported (as required by ProZ) by linguistic reasoning.
8 mins
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This is merely about the acuteness of one's literary criticism abilities and perceptions; in this case, everyone else missed the point and got it wrong, including you (twice). Linguistic reasoning in monolingual questions less relevant.
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disagree |
Toni Castano
: Any evidence to justify the correctness of your answer and discredit anyone's else? // In view of the above, "neutral" changes to "disagree".
17 mins
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neutral |
Althea Draper
: It says in the story that she drank tea and had muffins before going out to the dance that evening
19 hrs
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Yes Althea, I never intended to suggest she didn't drink tea, just that she tended not to engage in the elaborate afternoon ritual of the upper classes to which she belonged
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disagree |
Katalin Horváth McClure
: Extremely unlikely in the given historic and social context.
42 days
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8 hrs
is constantly drinking tea or spending time in the tea room
i.e. she "has never done with tea"
Only a guess as the grammar doesn't really fit with this
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Note added at 11 hrs (2024-02-11 20:55:09 GMT)
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This is ONLY A GUESS
Only a guess as the grammar doesn't really fit with this
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Note added at 11 hrs (2024-02-11 20:55:09 GMT)
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This is ONLY A GUESS
Peer comment(s):
disagree |
Andrew Bramhall
: And sadly, a wrong guess.// adding " with" completely alters the meaning, as you well know, and how can "never done tea" then come to mean "is constantly drinking tea"?? the crucial clue is in the word 'never'. German translation is completely irrelevant
39 mins
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Well, fwiw, this seems to be supported by the German translation of the book, so your outright disagreement is a little OTT
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disagree |
Arabic & More
: No need to add words that alter the meaning when they already make sense in English. Also, it would have to be "is" never done with tea for the grammar to work (instead of "has"). Most likely, the German translator just got it wrong.
4 hrs
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The German may well be wrong, I did say this answer is only a guess
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agree |
Charles Davis
: This is the right answer, I think
6 days
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thank you
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agree |
Katalin Horváth McClure
: This is the right answer. Mrs. Edwards is Emma's chaperone. The Lord suggests they must be in the tea-room, because Mrs. Edwards (is well known to) never be done with tea (never finishes). Emma is to stay with her all the time, so they are in the tea room
42 days
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thanks
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Discussion
So when Tom Musgrave says that Mrs Edwards “has never done tea”, he means that she has never finished (having) tea. Tea for her is habitually interminable. We would not put it like this today, but we could say, for example, that someone “has never done” talking about something (or more probably “is never done”: the shift in auxiliary verb from have to be in such constructions is quite marked during the nineteenth century), meaning “never stops” talking about it.
I would argue that this meaning fits the context well. After the first dances, the guests went to the tea-room for refreshments and have now returned. Tom Musgrave wishes to ask Emma to dance, but can’t see her (she is sitting behind a door), so he assumes (wrongly) that she is still in the tea-room with her chaperone, Mrs Edwards, who will still be there, endlessly having tea, because she “has never done tea”.
Edward Bulwer-Lytton, The Disowned (1829), I, 132-33
https://books.google.es/books?id=emLQ8nZpYTgC&pg=PA133
“When we have done tea, we will have a story”
William Cosmo Monkhouse, A Question of Honour: A Novel (1868), I, 220-21
https://books.google.es/books?id=KS5SQeWx3yMC&pg=PA220
“And when we have done tea my mother washes up the things, and I wipe them”
Frederick W. B. Bouverie, Life and Its Lessons; Or, The Past and the Present (1860), 12-13
https://books.google.es/books?id=fu5zyYE-9GwC&pg=PA12
And there are many more. It was used for other meals too. Here’s a good example in a letter from Jane Austen herself to her sister Cassandra:
“We dine now at half past three, and have done dinner I suppose before you begin.—We drink tea at half after six.—I am afraid you will despise us.”
Letters of Jane Austen (1884), p. 179
https://books.google.es/books?id=DpKHtf3ZKI8C&pg=PA179
Has never done tea is, I believe, related to an expression that was common in Jane Austen’s time but is no longer used: to have done tea, meaning to have finished tea. Here it is in a phrase book:
“When you have done tea, we... Have you done tea? Quand vous aurez pris, or fini de prendre le thé, nous... Avez-vous pris, or fini de prendre le thé?”
Mons. Le Page, The French Prompter; a General Handbook of Conversation in English and French (1853), p. 344
https://books.google.es/books?id=gjAP-u0o-FYC&pg=PA344
In case anyone is reluctant to trust the word of a Frenchman on this, there are many examples in texts by native English-speaking authors in which the meaning is clear from the context. Here are a few:
"The Edwards' invitation to the Watsons followed, of course. The Edwards were people of fortune, who lived in the town and kept their coach. The Watsons inhabited a village about three miles distant, were poor, and had no close carriage; and ever since there had been balls in the place, the former were accustomed to invite the latter to dress, dine, and sleep at their house on every monthly return throughout the winter. (...)
As they splashed along the dirty lane, Miss Watson thus instructed and cautioned her inexperienced sister: --
"I dare say it will be a very good ball, and among so many officers you will hardly want partners. You will find Mrs. Edwards' maid very willing to help you... (emphasis added)"
I respect the Asker's choice, just leaving this info for the records.
Source: https://www.pemberley.com/janeinfo/watsons1.html
"Servant participation was minimal though: the point of tea was its intimacy, with the lady of the house making and pouring the tea." https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/inspire-me/bridger...
However, she would not brew the tea for herself or anyone else at a ball.
https://janeausten.co.uk
Best of luck.
And now, fully convinced of your "superior intellectual ability", as you yourself commented in your response to my appraisal of your suggestion, I certainly believe it is the right time to leave this exchange of ideas. Good evening to you.
“Official” French Version of the Text:
https://janeausten.co.uk/fr/blogs/jane-austen-news/the-watso...
Je la trouverai dans le salon de thé. Cette vieille madame Edwards n'a jamais fait le thé. "
True, is it not a direct interpretation of the conflictive excerpt, it is just a rendering, but a translation on the “official” web site devoted to the honorable English writer, Ms Jane Austen. I shall try to find an English explanation of that ambiguous (and certainly “conflictive”) excerpt, which seems extremely difficult to me. Meanwhile, as long as a “final” interpretation is not suggested by anyone, “everyone” should exercise what I would call “caution” and “common sense”.
“Official” Spanish Version of the Text:
https://janeausten.co.uk/es/blogs/jane-austen-news/the-watso...
Iré ahora mismo. La encontraré en el salón de té. Esa vieja y rígida señora Edwards nunca ha hecho té. Esa vieja y rígida señora Edwards nunca ha hecho té. "
https://www.regencydances.org/paper025.php#:~:text=That each...
Maybe the following helps: Although Jane Austen never finished the story, it has been translated into more than one language, actually, so I looked up the relevant passage in German (thank you Toni for the idea). It reads:
"...alte Mrs. Edwards kann mit dem Teetrinken immer kein Ende finden."
In: "Die Watsons / Lady Susan / Sanditon. Die unvollendeten Romane," published by Reclam Verlag.
Seems to match Allegro's explanation (see his second answer).
Best wishes
Your Spanish translator was clearly guessing, Toni.
- Muy bien, señor, pero si es como sus hermanas sólo querrá que la escuchen. Voy ahora mismo. La encontraré en el salón de té. La vieja y estirada Sra. Edwards suele tardar una eternidad en tomarlo.
Which in English translates as follows (my translation, only the relevant phrase):
The stuffy old Mrs. Edwards usually needs an extremely long time to drink it.
Puzzling, isn´t it? Yes, I admit I am puzzled and cannot explain how the Spanish translator suggested such an interpretation, and whether it is right or wrong.
There are some details of how it has evolved here https://janeausten.co.uk/blogs/customs-and-manners/tea-time and here https://dc.etsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4406&context... (page 18 of 96). It's also different again from tea at a ball.
At a ball in the late 1700s, a young woman would typically go to the tea-room within the assembly rooms with a gentleman (often with a chaperone - in this case Mrs Edwards) and the gentleman would buy the tea in the hope of talking with the woman and getting to know her a bit better. A modern day equivalent would be getting a woman a drink from the bar.
"The Jane Austen Tea, then, helps us become more aware of how Austen uses tea-time to generate and sustain humor, sympathy, familial love, and romantic attachment among her characters. The tea-table is a profoundly social space in Austen’s novels—as it was in her world. In her fiction, Jane Austen deploys ideas about tea that were circulating in her culture to delightful, at times comic, ends."
https://jasna.org/persuasions/on-line/vol29no1/duquette.html...
Thank you and best wishes
PS
I know Althea said "...the family drank tea and had muffins..."; I just find it hard to wrap my head around this part. You can find the full text at https://www.pemberley.com/janeinfo/watsons1.html
There, you have these two examples:
"Mamma said I should be asleep before ten. Do you think Miss Osborne will keep her word with me, when tea is over?"
"On rising from tea, there was again a scramble for the pleasure of being first out of the room..."
Obviously, that's not a direct reference to the drink.
"We don’t do tea time on a schedule, although some families do it once a week (every Tuesday, for example). Some do it once a month."
https://www.placeswecallhome.com/blog/making-reading-fun
"If you aren’t homeschooling, do tea time on the weekends (both parents can join then, too!)."
https://katiewarner.com/writing/tea-time.html
"Tea is very popular, but we don’t do 'tea time' as a meal, like they do in parts of the UK."
https://www.quora.com/Do-the-Canadian-people-in-Canada-have-...
"Still – my parents didn’t do tea time and I don’t remember my friends’ families either – only my British Grandmother."
https://www.yarnharlot.ca/2010/11/tea_time/
"About two hours before we had to leave, we stopped at a cafe for tea and coffee—I still hadn’t done tea time in England yet!..."
https://abroadblogs.newpaltz.edu/blog/2010/09/york/
Practically all ladies drank tea in Jane Austen's world - it was often necessary to boil water or make beer of it for reasons of hygiene - clean drinking water was not always available. Children were given tea, and I do not think it would be possible - or conceivable - for a lady never to have had tea or to avoid it.
However, there were elaborate etiquettes and formalities (which Jane Austen sometimes pokes fun at), and some people made a big issue of observing the rules, while others were more relaxed about them.
Tea was not simply a drink either. It would be accompanied by sandwiches or cakes, and the word ´tea´ in English, as in ´afternoon tea´, can cover a small meal, with or without rituals, to this day.